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Miss Em
23, Wonderland
Posts: 286
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 Posted: Sun May 25, 08 7:11 pm |
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I took a music theory test recently, and there was one part of it I had a hard time with...chords. How do you tell if a chord is major of minor or whatever else chords might be? It's bugging me. I need to know.  
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Greg
26, Bay Area, CA
Posts: 668
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| Posted: Mon May 26, 08 2:27 am |
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| Miss Em wrote: | | I took a music theory test recently, and there was one part of it I had a hard time with...chords. How do you tell if a chord is major of minor or whatever else chords might be? It's bugging me. I need to know. |
Well, you analyze the scale degrees used in the chord voicing. The first thing you need to know is the root of the chord. Then look at what kind of 3rd it has, then look at what kind of 5th it has, then the 7th, 9th, 11th, and 13th. (if the chord voicing includes these degrees, of course)
And you should learn what degrees constitute chords, starting with triads--for example:
Major triad: root, major 3rd, 5th
Minor triad: root, minor 3rd, 5th
Then proceed to 7th chords:
Major 7th: root, major 3rd, 5th, major 7th
Minor 7th: root, minor 3rd, 5th, minor 7th
Dominant 7th: root, major 3rd, 5th, minor 7th
Half-diminished 7th: root, minor 3rd, flat 5th, minor 7th
etc.
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Ben
25,
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Mon May 26, 08 9:17 am |
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Greg...the stuff you write is awesome! You're speaking my language!
Miss Em...here's something I was thinking, and I hope this helps. After you start recognizing chords in their original form (triad - root, 3rd, 5th), you start running into inversions (3rd, 5th, root, and 5th, root, 3rd) which can make it even more interesting...and in some cases harder to tell what you're playing. The more familiar you are with the key/scale that the chord comes from, the easier it is to recognize the chords from that key/scale. Hope that helps some.
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Greg
26, Bay Area, CA
Posts: 668
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| Posted: Mon May 26, 08 12:38 pm |
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| Ben wrote: | | Greg...the stuff you write is awesome! You're speaking my language! |
Thanks! You made my day. 
| Ben wrote: |
Miss Em...here's something I was thinking, and I hope this helps. After you start recognizing chords in their original form (triad - root, 3rd, 5th), you start running into inversions (3rd, 5th, root, and 5th, root, 3rd) which can make it even more interesting...and in some cases harder to tell what you're playing. The more familiar you are with the key/scale that the chord comes from, the easier it is to recognize the chords from that key/scale. Hope that helps some. |
Yeah, triad inversions would be good to get used to seeing. Then also 7th chord inversions... but watch out for that deceptive root-position major 6th chord being the same as the first inversion of a minor 7th chord. It only makes knowing what the root is even more important.
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Ben
25,
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Mon May 26, 08 11:23 pm |
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OH YES!!! Isn't that just COOL? That's where substitutions come in. I remember when I first discovered that there was a minor in a Major 7th.
Dmaj7th = D F# A C#
F#m = F# A C#
Every note you add makes for another possible substitution. I don't know how practical or musical it is (when you have more notes), but it is at least thought provoking.
Another thing I find amazing is that if you invert an augmented chord, you come up with another augmented chord, invert it again and you get another! (I forget who diminished chords work...is it add the seventh and invert, and you can come out with four different chords?).
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Greg
26, Bay Area, CA
Posts: 668
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| Posted: Mon May 26, 08 11:24 pm |
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Tritone substitutions are cooler. 
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Ben
25,
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 08 5:29 pm |
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Oh...wow...I just looked those up and tried them...that's just too cool! That would be like...Dm7, G7, Cmaj7th to Dm7, Db7, Cmaj7th? Wow...I've got to use that somewhere! Amazing! (Why can't I think up stuff like this???)
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Greg
26, Bay Area, CA
Posts: 668
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 08 1:55 am |
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Substitutions work well when they follow the same or very close contour of the cadence, or general harmonic motion. Of course, tritone substitutions work because the 3rd and 7th, which are very important tones, are shared between the dominant 7 chords on opposite sides of the cycle (wheel) of 4ths/5ths
The thing that makes dominant chords want to resolve the way they do is the 3rd and 7th tones--the tritone. The 3rd and 7th (in G7's case, B and F) want to either push inward (to C and E, the root and 3rd of Cmaj) or push outwards (to A# and F#, the 3rd and root of F#maj). Notice the relationship of these two main resolutions, Cmaj and F#maj? Things directly across from each other in the cycle of 4ths/5ths are mutually related.
This new mindset, one I've been using a lot in my compositions lately--looking at harmonic movement through the linear movement of chord tones. It's a great way to understand how to create tension and release.
Here's one of my latest compositions where you can hear this mindset employed: http://www.gregjazz.com/recital/download/Song_For_Ori.mp3
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Ben
25,
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 08 10:12 pm |
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| Greg wrote: | | Substitutions work well when they follow the same or very close contour of the cadence, or general harmonic motion. Of course, tritone substitutions work because the 3rd and 7th, which are very important tones, are shared between the dominant 7 chords on opposite sides of the cycle (wheel) of 4ths/5ths |
Right...ok...see, my use of substitutions has been very basic. Think CMaj7th, Am7th, FMaj7th, G7th, to Em7th, Am7th, FMaj7th, G7th. Or G, D, Em, C, to G, D, Em, Cm7th...I love parallel minors!
Ok, so I've known that dominant chords lead inward (G7th to C, D7th to G, etc.), but I had never even thought about them moving out. That's just so cool! I love jazz, but haven't worked with jazz theory as much I should have...I have a book on it that really need to work through.
I'm going to be practicing with moving outward after a dominant 7th. I tried it a moment ago, and it sounds great! (I'm trying to listen to your song, but dial up can be such a drag...but what I've heard sounds REALLY good!!!). Keep it coming, man!
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Greg
26, Bay Area, CA
Posts: 668
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 08 1:02 am |
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| Ben wrote: | | Greg wrote: | | Substitutions work well when they follow the same or very close contour of the cadence, or general harmonic motion. Of course, tritone substitutions work because the 3rd and 7th, which are very important tones, are shared between the dominant 7 chords on opposite sides of the cycle (wheel) of 4ths/5ths |
Right...ok...see, my use of substitutions has been very basic. Think CMaj7th, Am7th, FMaj7th, G7th, to Em7th, Am7th, FMaj7th, G7th. Or G, D, Em, C, to G, D, Em, Cm7th...I love parallel minors! |
Chord insertion works well... so from your example of:
CMaj7th | Am7th | FMaj7th | G7th
You could insert in chords, so there are more than one chord per bar:
Cmaj7th E7(b9) | Am7 Am/G | E/F Fmaj7 | Fmaj7/G G7
| Ben wrote: |
Ok, so I've known that dominant chords lead inward (G7th to C, D7th to G, etc.), but I had never even thought about them moving out. That's just so cool! I love jazz, but haven't worked with jazz theory as much I should have...I have a book on it that really need to work through. |
Also although what I'm talking about is material generally discussed in advanced jazz theory, it is applicable to many types of music.
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Ben
25,
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 08 9:44 pm |
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| Greg wrote: | Chord insertion works well... so from your example of:
CMaj7th | Am7th | FMaj7th | G7th
You could insert in chords, so there are more than one chord per bar:
Cmaj7th E7(b9) | Am7 Am/G | E/F Fmaj7 | Fmaj7/G G7 |
Right...I've only worked with in a very basic bass line sort thing, where I don't really fill out the extra chords.
I like taking really good theory concepts and applying them to other styles. My style is a sort of light jazz...probably because I'm not good enough to attempt any of the really hard stuff! Although I think I'm catching most of what you're saying...it's REALLY great information! Are there any good books on jazz theory you could recommend?
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Greg
26, Bay Area, CA
Posts: 668
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 08 11:43 am |
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| Ben wrote: |
I like taking really good theory concepts and applying them to other styles. My style is a sort of light jazz...probably because I'm not good enough to attempt any of the really hard stuff! Although I think I'm catching most of what you're saying...it's REALLY great information! Are there any good books on jazz theory you could recommend? |
Most of the jazz books I know of and have read are mainly about playing jazz and not solely about theory. Most of the chord substitution techniques and stuff like that are things I've picked up over the years.
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bethlee
24,
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 08 2:31 pm |
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Awesome topic!
Greg, I love the song - it makes me think of what it would be like walking down the street of a big city, after a day full of loud sounds & awful smells & busyness & crowds everywhere . . . and then, after dark, taking a stroll down that same street, nearly empty now, with the soft glow of the street lights and little shop windows . . . a beautiful night, hearing the tap of my shoes on the sidewalk, a faint laugh coming from an open window, and then . . . I can hear your song.
A small soulful band of artists, staying up late to play together . . .
I slow my steps, just listening . . .
Thank you . . . for the music
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